Comments (30)

• WU

  What a great line: "But the New York Times did some digging and discovered — horror — that Joe is doing plumbing without a proper business license. "

  What a great article!

  Published: October 19, 2008 10:16 PM

• Mary Diane Dolan

  Bravo, Lew. P-e-r-f-e-c-t.

  "If someone is doing plumbing, he is a plumber. Period".

  In my mind this harmonizes with the fact that:

  "Political reality is not reality at all".

  Published: October 20, 2008 1:36 AM

• Curt Howland

  "Doing Business Without A License."

  Which reminds me, my copy of _Hamilton's Curse_ was shipped over the weekend, I am watching my mailbox!

  Published: October 20, 2008 7:38 AM

• Michael A. Clem

  I sincerely doubt that conservatives like McCain (or is he just "conservative") or Senator James Inhofe can possibly understand what's wrong with things like licensing and taxation, for all their "low tax, small government" rhetoric.

  Published: October 20, 2008 9:15 AM

• Ohhh Henry

  Am I to understand that the NYT has been selling newspapers for over 100 years without an official government license? For shame.

  Published: October 20, 2008 11:19 AM

• Liberty4All

  Mr. Rockwell,

  Thank you for presenting JTP in a light that is refreshing and thought-provoking as the antidote to the dreadful media coverage of this emerging hero. [He does remind me a bit of Herman Cain vs President Clinton regarding universal health care.] I, too, read the "he's not a LICENSED plumber" proclamation as yet another sad indicator of how far we've let the state determine how we should live our lives.

  Hey, I'm not a plumber by trade but I've done work on my own property. I'm not alone. Lovers of liberty should not have to put up with the regulations that do nothing more than place restraints on our freedom. It is no more ridiculous to force plumbers to be licensed than it is kid with a lemon stand. What next? Shake down the schools that use bake sales to raise funds...Let's see. You are preparing and selling food (need a license and inspection for that). You are making a profit (need a tax for that). "Excuse me, but do you have a license to operate as a vendor in this town." And on and on and on...There are way more "outlaws" than can be prosecuted in this country. If they want to just put up grey bars around the country and call this the world's largest prison...

  Published: October 20, 2008 11:56 AM

• Evelyn

  I am in the home building business and I have seen many mistakes done at a big cost. Yes, I do agree that getting a license is to reduce the amount of people in the business but those people that have the license play by the rules. He can get a license too if he wants to but he he chooses to be an outlaw. Lets be free until you get somebody to remodel you bathroom and after spending thousand of dollars looks beautiful but after few month the water start coming out little by little everywhere. Now you have mold, a big health bills, and a demolition of that bath to find where the water is coming from. He is not license and doesn't have insurance that means he doesn't have money and your insurance company doesn't want to pay because you hire a "plumber". Lets all be free with your money not mine.

  Published: October 20, 2008 1:18 PM

• Ron

  Evelyn,

  Do you mean to say that licensed contractors never make mistakes?

  My wife is a teacher at a private school. She's been teaching for four years now, and after her second year she was nominated for Who's Who In American Teachers, was voted Teacher Of The Year by her peers, and had the school yearbook dedicated to her by the senior class. To this date her students maintain the highest ranking in Advanced Placement testing in her subject, and nearly 50% of the students who request to take her class each year have to be turned away. Quite a list of accomplishments for someone who "only" holds a bachelor's degree in her subject, and is not a certified teacher.

  The point is that a license proves nothing about someone's knowledge, ability, work ethic, or attention to detail. It is merely a hoop to jump through. It's costly and time-consuming. If I wish to hire an unlicensed plumber to save a little money, that's my choice, and I assume the risk. The problem is that consumers have become lazy. We don't wish to assume any risk, so we prefer that the state makes the risk less apparent, making us feel "protected".

  In a libertarian society, the consumer who ended up with a moldy bathroom would be able to sue the plumber for damages. It's really simple. The consumer hired someone to provide a service. The provider failed to provide that service. The provider is therefore liable for damages. A provider who consistently failed to provide the expected service would find himself looking for another job. Thus, the market weeds out incompetence. No licenses necessary.

  Published: October 20, 2008 1:47 PM

• Horace

  I wanted to write a Saul Alinski type book and call it "Rules for Outlaws". But I remembered the story of Thomas Edison showing a new young engineer around the research facility. Supposedly, the young man asked, "Mr. Edison, what are the rules here." To which Edison responded, "Rules? There aren't any rules. We're trying to accomplish something."

  Outlaws don't follow rules.

  Published: October 20, 2008 1:59 PM

• HK

  I am currently working for for an engineering firm that has made a darn good income by following behind other licensed engineers and fixing their mistakes. Having a professional license from the state does not ensure competence. It does however mislead the consumer when they are making a selecting in the marketplace.

  Published: October 20, 2008 3:41 PM

• Abel

  Reading this I'm reminded of Robert De Niro's role as the renegade plumber in the movie "Brazil".

  Published: October 20, 2008 5:25 PM

• Evelyn

  I never said that having a license proves that you have more knowledge. I am saying that laws are done because a lot of irresponsible people. You see if you sue a guy that has no money and no insurance to cover him you get no money. When you said "A provider who consistently failed to provide the expected service would find himself looking for another job" you are not taking in to account all those people that still haven't fix their roof since our last hurricane 2 years ago because they decided to save money a get an unlicensed contractor who took their money and never finished the job. HK good for you, but if you make a mistake is not you that will get sue. Let’s be realistic, if you are doing your own bathroom and want to save money you hire anybody or you can do it yourself but if this is a building and the losses and in millions then you have to have a backup somewhere. I hate that the government tells me what to do and all the old stupid laws but that laws were in place at one point because of some people taking advantage of others. Even thought I have to accept that lobbyists are there to make laws to make them rich while we pay for it. Is a win-win situation for everybody but the home owner. Schools get money, state gets money and on,and on.

  Published: October 20, 2008 6:35 PM

• YerMawm

  Evelyn, Being realistic and logical here...

  If I were shopping for a plumber or anything else, I would perform my own due diligence by seeking references. I would ask friends for references as well. To put it bluntly, trusting in government is an excuse to be lazy.

  I have spent 20+ years in IT. There are no unions, no licenses, and it works out just fine. Sure there are mistakes, but people mostly rely on references. Those of us who do good work have a job, those who do not, change careers or improve our skills. Simple and realistic

  Published: October 20, 2008 7:08 PM

• Marie

  People have "side" business and not necessariy LICENCE. I know many licensed individuals but are not very good at what they do. It doesn't matter to me whether or not Joe the plumber has a license. What MATTERS is that people finally have the smoking gun that Obama is a SOCIALIST. Before voting, keep in mind that WE THE PEOPLE will pay the cost of all his plans. If the democrats have the "60" seats they needed in the senate, there's no stopping them. I have lived in a SOCIALIST country, I prefer not to relive that life again. Maybe some of you don't care but for those of us who have experienced it, it's rather a nightmare. Be careful what you ask for. For example, if democrats pass a "universal healthcare." We are just doom! But then again it could be good news. We will have to stop saving a life that cannot be save and doctors will only order the test that should be ordered instead of the whole kitchen. Right now, they're doing everything to cover their behind. If you're given six months to live then their shouldn't be any reason to order all kinds of test or even do surgery. May the force be with us. I read an article in WSJ and said...mccain is trying to change washington. Obama is trying to change the U.S. and it's not for the better. The good news if he wins? The poor are likely the least that will suffer. well, here goes the middle class.

  Published: October 20, 2008 7:49 PM

• Christina Dunigan

  Do you think maybe the MSM has a double standard?

  Martin Haskell runs an illegal, unlicensed business in Ohio. Do you see the MSM getting their knickers in a twist about this?

  And -- shades of "He's not JOE! He's SAM!" -- Haskell's name isn't even Martin. It's WILLIAM Martin MUDD Haskell. Yes, his name is Mudd.

  Gosh, why do you think William Mudd the business owner gets a pass by the media, while Sam/Joe the man who dreams of owning a business gets crucified?

  William Martin Mudd Haskell is the guy who popularized Partial Birth Abortion. His unlicensed business is an abortion clinic.

  Published: October 21, 2008 6:55 AM

• Michael

  Precisely, YerMawm.

  The most areas of IT/IS industry are free from government meandering. And it should stay that way. Worker competency, in addition to seeking references, a resume, and a portfolio of previous work accomplishments (e.g. map of LAN redesign, website samples, database or business intelligence system source code), can also be derived from private certifications from Cisco, Microsoft, Oracle, etc.

  I'm an Information Technologist. And not because I have a special piece of paper from the government that tells me that I am.

  Published: October 21, 2008 7:45 AM

• Greg

  Evelyn is right! I have been a general contractor for 23 years, helped adopt new building codes and understand the legal system as it applies to contruction. Of all the trades, plumbing is the most difficult to perform right and if something goes wrong, it will cause the most damage to any house.
  Furthermore, you must understand who these licenses and codes protect. If you think it is the home buyer, you are wrong! Building code departments are part of the insurance commission and it designed to protect them. So if you want to go outside the law, build a house without licensed contractors and outside the code, you will have a house that cannot be insured. Now think about that! You may save 20% on your cost, but will never be able to sell it as insurance is required by buyers and banks. Not a very smart way to invest in real estate.
  One more thing you must understand about code, it is the minimum standard allowed by law. So if you have work done and it is by code, you have the minimum quality. For me, when it comes to plumbing, I want better!

  Published: October 21, 2008 10:05 AM

• Curt Howland

  Evelyn, "I am saying that laws are done because a lot of irresponsible people."

  There's your mistake. You have completely missed the fact that politicians make laws in order to get re-elected.

  If irresponsible people made mistakes, that's what law suits are for.

  If someone wants to show they are a good electrician or plumber, they can provide customer or education references. Maybe even "professional" references, such as a certification from a trade organization.

  This is what is done in non-government-regulated fields.

  Funny thing is, it's also done in regulated fields. It turns out that merely having a license from the government says absolutely nothing about providing a quality service.

  But such licenses do limit the number of people providing the service, a shortage which directly leads to higher prices even for the incompetent. Which, if you read what those who push for trade licenses actually say, is the whole point.

  Consider "public safety" for a moment. If "lives saved" were any consideration, government would be eliminated. Official government acts have always killed more people by many orders of magnitude than mere private crime.

  So please, reconsider your "because of irresponsible people" position. It's demonstrably false.

  Published: October 21, 2008 10:08 AM

• Michael A. Clem

  Licensing laws give government the authority to shut anybody down if they don't have a license, whether they've harmed anybody or not, whether they're good or not, and as already pointed out, having a license merely means you met the government's requirements, usually a fee, not that you're good at the job. Licensing is also a good way to limit the competition so *that* you don't have to do too good of a job, because the consumer's alternatives are limited.
  
  Voluntary certification, on the other hand, exists to actually help consumers and service providers, and not to limit competition, prevent someone from working, or filling someone's coffers with coin. Certification processes provide a real, useful service that mandatory licensing doesn't.
  
  Want protection? Certify. Want protection racket? License.

  Published: October 21, 2008 10:51 AM

• Greg

  Michael,
  Have you thought through the whole certification angle? It will cost you much, much more as you will need an certified engineer to perform the oversite. Trust me on this one, it cost less to go through the government inspection and license process. Plus, most engineers are protecting their backside and will make you overbuild. But you are free to go that direction in most states as a certified engineer over rides any government inspector.

  Published: October 21, 2008 1:06 PM

• Henry Miller

  Greg,

  Yes plumbing is one of the harder trades. However it is still simple. Water moves downhill unless under pressure. Either way a leak can rot out the house if not correct. Nothing hard about that. I've done a lot of plumbing, some of which had to pass inspection. Follow a few simple rules and there are no problems at all.

  I've seen a licensed plumber cut one of the support beams on a house because he wanted to run a pipe there. (the builder caught this and a carpender friend of mine had to fix it)

  If you want to get a licensed professional to work on your house be my guess. Personally I've been burned by their poor quality work too many times to want that.

  Published: October 21, 2008 2:22 PM

• Greg

  Henry,
  I agree, plumbing or anything else in home contruction is not rocket science. All I am saying is water or raw sewage can cause the most damage to a finished home.
  Your point about the plumber cutting a support beam is exactly why we need licensed tradesmen and code enforcement. The framing inspection which is done after the plumber, HVAC and electricians have completed their jobs and paying attention to all cuts done by those trades. By having those trades licensed, the code enforcement department can track problem contractors and if the problem continues, they can fine them for additional inspections.
  But lets get back to the original point, licensed contractors and code enforcement is about insurance. Without the ability to insure your house, it cannot be sold to anyone who finances it. However, you can do the work yourself, but code enforcement still applies and you must live in the house for 2 years before you can sell it.

  Published: October 21, 2008 5:47 PM

• Greg

  Henry,
  I agree, plumbing or anything else in home contruction is not rocket science. All I am saying is water or raw sewage can cause the most damage to a finished home.
  Your point about the plumber cutting a support beam is exactly why we need licensed tradesmen and code enforcement. The framing inspection which is done after the plumber, HVAC and electricians have completed their jobs and paying attention to all cuts done by those trades. By having those trades licensed, the code enforcement department can track problem contractors and if the problem continues, they can fine them for additional inspections.
  But lets get back to the original point, licensed contractors and code enforcement is about insurance. Without the ability to insure your house, it cannot be sold to anyone who finances it. However, you can do the work yourself, but code enforcement still applies and you must live in the house for 2 years before you can sell it.

  Published: October 21, 2008 5:47 PM

• Michael A. Clem

  Greg, I sure have--the point is that certification is voluntary--and no one will certify unless people really want it, and if they want it, they want it to be effective and meaningful certification, worth the cost of being certified. And there's no reason insurance companies can't work with certification agencies--if anything, the insurance companies would be one of the checks against frivolous certification, as well as the competition of certification. Ultimately, it depends upon the end consumer. If the homeowner doesn't care, neither certification nor licensing will mean anything to him, or provide him any meaningful protection. He can get his cousin or neighbor to fix his plumbing, or even do it himself. But if he does care, it's up to the businesses to prove their competency to the homeowner, and certification that has the insurance company's approval is a fine and dandy way of doing that, wouldn't you agree?
  
  Of course, if your goal is to protect the ignorant or lazy homeowner, I fail to see how licensing helps even there.

  Published: October 21, 2008 6:14 PM

• Mike E

  Most agreeable piece. Is anyone as insanely bored with the election as I am? Plastic comments made by plastic puppets. I would write-in Joe but I fear I cant spell his last name :). Would "Joe the Plumber" work?

  Published: October 21, 2008 11:24 PM

• Marc

  The license racket is designed to protect trade unions and existing contractors from competition. If licensing was a matter of testing individual tradesmen for competency and knowledge, it would not be a serious issue, but it is not that simple. To obtain a license, you must show that you have been doing that exact type of work for another union contractor for years, with no career change prior to obtaining the license. If you were a plumber in the 80's for 10 years, you would NOT qualify to even take the test (at least in my state). Read this, and tell me it is not set up as a barrier to market entry:
  LICENSE QUALIFICATION PROCESS
  The Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board (O.C.I.L.B.), Department of Commerce, Division of Industrial Compliance, issues state commercial licenses to the following contractors: electrical, HVAC, hydronics, plumbing, and refrigeration. To receive a state license, an applicant must meet the following requirements: 1) be at least 18 years of age; 2) be a United States citizen or a legal alien-must provide proof of being a legal alien; 3) either have been a tradesperson in the type of licensed trade for which the application is filed for not less than five years immediately prior to the date the application is filed, currently be a registered engineer in this state with three years of business experience in the construction industry in the trade for which the engineer is applying to take the examination, or have other experience acceptable to the appropriate section of the board; 4) not have been convicted of or plead guilty to a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude or of any felony; 5) pass the examination in the trade; 6) carry minimum $500,000 contractor liability coverage; 7) pay the applicable fees.

  Back to top

  TO QUALIFY TO SIT FOR THE EXAMINATION
  Complete the attached exam application. Item nine (9) on the exam application: Dates of employment must have start and end month, day and year to verify five (5) years working experience in that trade with no breaks in that five year history immediately prior to completing the application. Be specific in nature of duties. Attach copies of documentation that would support your credentials such as: any local licenses or registrations, permits obtained, union card, pay stubs, W-2�s, signed contracts, invoices, and letters of recommendation or verification of employment on company letterhead. You will need to have the application notarized. Incomplete applications will delay the process. PLEASE REMOVE (cross out) SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER FROM ALL DOCUMENTATION!

  In short, if you ain't in the Union now, you ain't gettin' in the Union ever.

  Published: October 22, 2008 11:15 PM

• Marc

  And just as a side note, I have done my own (complete bathroom) plumbing, advanced electrical work, and alot of other home remodeling and construction, and nothing has ever leaked, burned down or fell over in over 20 years. I have never had a job in the construction industry. It is NOT rocket science.

  Published: October 22, 2008 11:23 PM

• Franklin

  Greg, there is a principle at hand, a far more fundamental issue: it's liberty. This is about principle not pragmatism (although pragmatism ends up being satisfied by liberty as well). If I want somebody to fix my pipe, I will choose who I want as the fixer. I don't want some government hack busybody telling me that my plumber needs a State license.
  I know the argument all too well: "But Franklin, the government (licensing agency) is here to help you...."
  Yeah, right. Then maybe I can sue the government if a licensed contactor fails to provide adequate service. "Get to the back of the line, Franklin."

  The response to the government ought to be, "Leave me the hell alone. I will associate with, trade with, work with whom I want." Of course then the government puts me in jail, and I sadly don't have the stubborness of Henry David Thoreau.

  Licenses for protection... and insurance.... and the house might have a leak.... and then will flood, and will damage it... and the mortgagor will be unhappy, and then the floor rots.... and rats will nest..... and on and on and on.....
  None of this matters. None. It's about liberty, pure and simple.

  You are a contractor of 23 years, and sound like a good one. You will thrive in the market. I will not. I have a hammer. I usually don't know which end of the nail to strike. But it's my hammer, and if I want to call myself a contractor, I will. Caveat emptor, and government be damned.

  Respectfully,
  F.
  

  Published: October 25, 2008 12:09 PM

• Ariel Sokolovsky

  B"H
  In addition to the absurdity of the claim that a person is not a really plumber if he doesn't have some piece of paper it seems that Joe the plumber does have all the licenses needed and the whole attack has been very misleading:
  To quote wikipedia:
  Plumbing career

  Wurzelbacher is one of two employees of a small plumbing firm, Newell Plumbing and Heating Co. of Toledo,[7] the company he described to Obama as making $250,000 to $280,000 per year.[7] Wurzelbacher said that the idea of buying the company was discussed during his job interview six years prior.[5] According to MSNBC, Court records show that Wurzelbacher made $40,000 in 2006.[15] Dun & Bradstreet estimates the annual sales of A. W. Newell Corporation, the actual corporate name, at $510,000, and states it has 8 employees. [26]

  An Associated Press article reported that Wurzelbacher did not have a plumber's license or apprenticeship,[27] although Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters and Service Mechanics revealed that Wurzelbacher did not complete an apprentice program started in 2003.[28]

  Wurzelbacher actually does not need a plumbing license because he works for a plumbing corporation, which holds responsibility for licensing issues. Additionally A. W. Newell holds licenses with the State of Ohio and City of Toledo.[5][12] Even in light of the fact that Lucas County Building Inspection records show A. W. Newell Corp. does maintain a state plumbing license, another with the City of Toledo, and none in Lucas County Ohio, Joe Wurzelbacher has no control nor responsibility in regard to this issue. Even if according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do independent plumbing work[29], Joe Wurzelbacher is not presently an independent plumber, meaning this is not presently a regulatory issue.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_the_Plumber#Plumbing_career

  Published: October 29, 2008 10:43 AM

• jgo

  "he was planning to buy"

  What he said was that he was "thinking about buying".

  And I'm thinking about running my own movie studio/think tank... if only I can figure out the whole start-up financing thing.
  :B-)

  Published: November 12, 2008 12:54 PM